Up front, I currently own and use crampons from Camp, Black Diamond, Petzl, and Grivel. I still own Salewa and Chouinard crampons that I have pulledouta few times in the last decade or so and even older Chouinards and SMCs that I haven't used in this century.
The point is I have no loyalty to any crampon maker. I just want them to fit my boots and thenstay on the bootswhile I am climbing onthem. As you might imagine with crampons in my gear room that I used 30 years ago I look for reliability and atlong term durability as well.
These dayswith the emphasis onmixed climbing (read rock climbing) in cramponsyou can easily go through a set of crampon front points in a season or less, if you choose to participate.
So a crampon with an easily replaceable front point makes economical sense. But I have yet to see a crampon with easily replaceable front points that I really like...for a number of reasons.
So if you like fixed front points, as I do, you'll likely look for crampons that are the most durable and just as important the most reliable. The reason behind thisparticular blog and its information/opinions offeredis simple, losing a crampon on routeor having a crampon failure while in use can be serious. Fatally serious. That realitybought meto the obvious...a closer look at the quality of the steel used and different manufacturing techniques.
OK letstalk steel? But whatdoes a guy writing a climbing blog know about steel? In this case enough to make an educated comment from the quality and durability of steelsand the manufacturing processes currently being used to make crampons. As a professional I've designed and built literally hundreds of extremely high quality and very expensive small arms, small arm partsand custom knives from plate, bar stock and from forged, stainless and chromoly steels. One requirement that eachhasis they must last generations of hard use, not just a season or two.
Call me an well educated consumer for climbing hard goods.. My background in the small arms industry gives me some insight to recognisethe differences between actual forged parts or parts cut from plate or bar stock, the heat treat, hardnessand the differences in chromoly and stainless steel alloys. It isn't difficult to apply that knowledge to climbing gear at a basic level. Several decadesof ice climbing and the use of virtually every high performance crampon in that time frame lends me an idea or twothat might not be obvious at first glance by a casual climber or one simply not "into" the gear. This is a detailed gearcommentaryI think needs to be heard againin the climbingcommunity. As you will see I am a not the first one to have raised the issue of using chromoly and stainless in crampons
More on steels:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stainless_steel
http://www.asminternational.org/portal/site/www/SubjectGuideItem/?vgnextoid=e0b0b4d68558d210VgnVCM100000621e010aRCRD
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steel
*Some materials and finishing perspective that needs to be considered first*
Working with a bare metal finish is a challenge for anyone, including skilledcraftsmen. There is nothing to hide a flaw.Doesn't matter if it is a small arm or a crampon, bare metal is always tough to work with. There is some obvious protective value to most metal finishes. But most protective finishes, especially "black" finishes will hide some pretty glaring faults/flaws as well. Faults you could never get by with on a bare metal finish like stainless.
Bottom line here? BD is allowing you to easily see every flaw in their stainless.Almost everyone else is using some typeof paint finish to protect their chromoly and just as importantly...look good cosmetically.
On the sells room floor cosmetics are king. In the real word cosmetics mean ZIP. Nothing! Function and durability mean everything. That goes for crampons and small arms. Who has complained they wereshot with an ugly gun? Does the mtn care about the color of your crampon?
It is easy to find flaws in metal work if you look hard enough. Just easier to see them in bare metal, that is in "the white". The photo below is is an example of four different bare metal, "in the white"finishes on stainless.
Four finishes on chromoly steel that wasthen final finishedwith Carbona Blue for cosmetics and a low level of base metal protection.
The issue of flaws, in finish work or how you produce a product, can easily be over come. You just need to usea materialthat structural or cosmetic flawswon't have a negativeeffectin the market place. Problems result when your base material can't live up to your design work, for the use intended and the product fails in use. Or your marketing department gets carried away with unrealistic claims.
The choice of material is critical when you have complex shapes, as you do withmodern crampons.
Flawscutting and bending in the manufacturing processthat have long been accepted with chromoly, and no ill effects, simply may not work with in the same process with stainless. Durability for stainless alloys and the heat treatbeing used seemsbarelyin the same ball game as time proven chromoly.
Petzl's handiwork inchromoly and a black painted finish
dbl click to get more details
Grivel's handiwork in chromoly and a black painted finish
dbl click to get more details
My perspective on gear breakage
If you have climbed ice long you have likely seen gear break. The gear that does break in our sport is commonly known these days, or should be. It is true that crampons, tools and picks have broken in the past (for decades) from every brand. Anyone that tellsyou the failureof current productiongear is the fault of your climbing style, boot sole rigidity, or climbing abilityis simply ignoring the real issue. The real issue ismore likelyone or more of the following, poor quality materials, lack of quality control andor bad design work by the manufacture.
Sure you can still break things ice climbing, but trust me, you will have to work at it for any of the quality gear available today..
I personally haven't broken any ice gearin the last decade. But I am alsovery critical on my choices in gearand I visually inspect themoften.
I have worn out 3 pairs of crampons. An early pair of Chouinard rigids by over sharpening. My mistake which I have notrepeated. The other two pair were Darts. Worn out simply by using them on modern mixed (read mostly rock) and having to sharpen them enough to keep them working onice. Fair enough in all three cases. All were chromoly and all were forged front points. Totally different designs or course but thatisn't relevanttothis conversation.
So here is what I know and what is generally accepted common knowledge in the small arms (guns and knives) manufacturing industry.
High quality stainless steel alloys are "soft and sticky" in comparison to chromoly used for similar applications in both plate and forged form. And no, before you ask, the "sticky" partisn't going to make a difference climbingrock.
Take any quality knife for example. If you want a durable and sharpedge you don't use stainless, you use chromoly. If you want inexpensive weather resistance, say from salt exposure, stainless might be anoption. A table knife you want to toss in the dishwasher? Perfect. Stainless is one of the most common and least expensive steels. Much of it recycled.. It is also the cosmetic winner and the lowest common denominator for actual performance every where else. Ifyou require a sharp edge that is durable, and long term weather resistance, you use chromoly. Depending on the level of protection requiredone of severalcoating options for the base metal.
The edge and the durability required can be a crampon point,a knife edge the professional requiresor a hammer that has to cycle a million rounds of ammo.
Bottom line...if you want it to last, you use chromoly and if required, a protective coating.
I would have to be convinced otherwise that a chromoly cramponwould need a protective coating past cosmetics. I know from experience that even simple powder coating is beyond the end use requirements to protect the steel on a crampon. The "normal* coatings we use in my industry are way beyond what will ever be required in climbing gear. As a side note. The one instance of aclimbing manufactureusing a *normal* industrial level coating that I know of ended in a complete disaster. Simply because the manufacture had no idea of the down sides of the actual coating being used. Down sides? Lubricity and brittleness in a fastener. Their reasonfor the coating process? Cosmetics!
Forging? Forging is expensive. The basic idea is to align the molecules in the metal toadd strength and durability to your product. You can forge stainless and chromoly. Forging will add to the durability and service life of both stainless and chromoly alloys if done correctly (hot forged ) and with the addition of a proper heat treat.
"Forging can produce a piece that is stronger than an equivalent cast or machined part. As the metal is shaped during the forging process, its internal grain deforms to follow the general shape of the part. As a result, the grain is continuous throughout the part, giving rise to a piece with improved strength characteristics.[3] Some metals may be forged cold, but iron and steel are almost always hot forged. Hot forging prevents the work hardening that would result from cold forging, which would increase the difficulty of performing secondary machining operations on the piece."
More here on forging:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Forging
The beginnings of a BD stainless crampon.
Cutting from plate? It is a less expensivemethod of manufacture compared to forged. Basically cookie cutting by some method from flatsteel plate and then you cold bend and finally heat treat as required.General observation....durability compared to a forged product...will be less. Again,,general observation..price point in manufacturing is theobjective here. You can use both stainless or chromoly as a material in this process. Either will coldform, both will crack if not done correctly prior to heat treat. Flaws from the cutting or bending process, stress risers, becomepoints of failure if the cycle rate of the design isn't high enough. (see the detail pictures below)
Cutting or forging....two totally different methods of manufacture and twototally different price points for the manufacturer. But may be not the consumer.You may not get what you pay for. There are always choices in any manufacturing process. The trick is to know what choices to make, what can be combined in the manufacturing processand most importantly, why.
Everything I have stated isreallybasic info to anyone working metal. Not all the details are there, and to be honest as a climber the detailsare trivial. Gear either works as intended or it doesn't.Asimple Google search will give you more info than you will ever require on steels and manufacturing processes.
So what is the bottom line? Who cares about stainless or chromoly,forged or cut from plate?
There are someeasy comparison to make given enough time. But there are other issues as well. Does size matter? It certainly does in raw materials and production costs. How much the crampon covers on your boot sole and does it make a difference climbing? ThatI'll leave that up to your imagination.
A '80s vintage forgedChouinard/Salewa on the left with 6 down points. A plate cut stainless BD on the rightwith 6 down points for the *same size* boot sole. It should be obvious which pattern offers the most traction on snow and ice. How much is enough?
BelowChouinard/ Salewa Hnged, hot forged, chromoly crampons. Bought in 1979 and used all over the worldon ice and mixed.Notable..mixed climbing...theChouinard/Beckey/Doody route on Edith Cavell,Canadian Rockies. And literally 1000s of feet of water ice and easy mixed. I've never heard of a pair of these failing in any manner. But no Internet for much of their life span either.. Weight 204g forone front half.
Chouinard /Salewa'sfrontpoints after years of use.
Black Diamond Stainless Sabertooth. stainless, cut from plate and cold formed.Known catastrophic failures with thiscrampon technology on complicated designs. Total use on this pair? Two trips up the Cosmic Arete, early March . Maybe 10% of what the Chouinard/Salewa Hinged above did on justthe North face of Cavell. Weight 142g for one front half (stripped w/no bail)
Current production BD Stainless Sabertooth Crampons after only a few hours of climbing on moderate mixed terrain. Dbl click the photos for a close up view.
Two sides to every story. And admittedly I only see a small part of even my side on this one. I admire innovation and on first impression you might be ableto make a case for stainless as a reasonalbase material forcrampon manufacture. Misleading infomercials asidethe manufacturing techniques and alloy chosen would have to be up to the task as well to reap the real benefits of stainless in a crampon.
To follow thenext part of the discussion please view the BD product video linked below.
Upgrade to stainless: The benefits of Black Diamond stainless steel crampons. from Black Diamond Equipment on Vimeo.
Making a *direct comparison to the best chromoly technology* used incrampon manufacturehere aremy observations and comments to theBDthe video.
BD claims these benefits (in bold print below)to their stainless in their video and my answrs to those claims.
More "green" manufacturing. yes, better thanadding a coating,check.
No rust.stainless willstill rust,better than Chromoly for rust? Sure.
Wears better in use. Sadly not what I have found in use and not the consistant history of stainless.
Extremely hard. Not even close to chromoly.
More durable. Again not even close to chromoly.
Stronger. No, chromoly is generally stronger in use
Lighter. chromoly and stainless weigh the same..the same.
Of course you couldargue the point with different variations of stainless and chromoly alloys and the terms,"extremely hard", "more durable" and "stronger". Just my opinions, based on my own experience, that are expressed here.
Below is a production (not a sales sample) Sabertooth Pro failure from last winter. And not the only pair with similar stainless steel failures I documented in the / winter climbing season. BTW all of the failures I am aware of have been either in the the EU or Canada.
To be fair likely the biggest retailer in the USA has no problem with the durability of the BD stainless crampons. I was made privy to the BD returns at REI for /11 and the % was extremely low. Returns of BD crampons at REI for any reason are well below anything to raise their corporate concerns.
Comments below are from the owner of the broken crampons pictured above:
"The boot is/was a Nepal Evo bought in . Size 42.5. The crampons only really had 10-15 days on them (I originally posted 20 but I was being overly conservative). I do weigh in at 200lbs but am not aggressive with my kicks. The majority of the days climbing were on tame WI3 as a seconder with a few days leading. By no means am I an expert but I would not say that they were seriously abused in such a short time and with relatively low impact climbing. In total, there were three days walking up grotto falls. Three days at Chantilly, climbing no walking. 4 days at King Creek, only climbing and two days on THOS. Not a lot of mileage...
Hope that helps,
Blake"
FWIW the Grivel G12s I'm climbing onin the picture belowhave beenon much more modern mixed than a couple of laps on the Cosmic Arete andshow virtually no significant wear on the front points. They are still going strong with a second owner.
You don't have to be a materials engineer or a rocket scientist to see what is happening here. Similar wear patterns on both sets of crampons. Just a lot more wearin a short amount of time on the stainless version.You have to be extremely naive to believe the marketingpitchof better manufacturing techniques and the use of a higherquality of material. I was originally.Ihave been awareof the issues inmanufacturing and production on this subjectfor several climbing seasons. But I hadn't had the time to field test the stainless long term to my satisfaction until now.
Photos beloware the microflaws (stress risers) inplate cut stainless crampons. The most recent pair arecoded *1069*(69th day of ) the oldest *0168*. Givenenough use/time,IMO, thesewilleventuallyfail.See if you identifythe manufacturing flaws in thesephotos.
The next threepictures are closeups of the front points.
Andsmallcracks starting on the outside edge of twodifferent frames that will likely end asa catastrophic failureif you continued using it.
The lesson here is to be sure you visually check ALLyour gear at the time of purchase and prior to every use!
Petzl, Grivel and DMM have a choice and are still using chromoly. Camp beat BD to market with a stainless crampon. That is the Camp •"Sandvik Nanoflex® stainless steel for superior performance and durability."
Black Diamondhas a very good marketing department.here in the US. Claiming among other things"stainless is lighter than chromoly". Which is of course is an incorrect statement.
Facts I do agree with?
Nice that Grivel has written them all down :) When I first saw this info on Grivel's web site a few years ago I put much of it off to childish bickering between two companies fighting overmarket share.After all didn't everyone want some pretty new crampons? I certainly did! But no doubt some truth to Grivel'spublished info.Now? I am more concerned aboutwhat I strap on to my own boots. And I worry less about who originally pointed out the down sides of stainless.
http://www.grivel.com/company/inox_vs_nicromo
http://www.grivel.com/company/metalli/interview_emilio_ramous.pdf
If you bother with a search of this blog you will find a fewpositive commentaries onBD stainless crampons. Specificallythe newest stainless Sabertooth and Serac crampons. I like those model'soverall weight and climbing on them even more so. I still think the Sabertooth is one of the best all around crampon designs we have seen to date.But good design work willseldomovercome a bad choice in materials and poor manufacturing techniquesif the tool is pushed to the extreme. And crampons are always pushed to the limit.
Mark Twight and Will Gadd have both, at one time or another commented in print, onjust how well the Sabertooth (the previous chromoly version anyway) climbed.
More on my thoughtsof how well the Serac and Sabertooth designs climb.
http://coldthistle.blogspot.com//11/black-diamond-serac-crampon.html
http://coldthistle.blogspot.com//02/these-freakn-pons.html
Fun to see BD sponsored, Colin Haley climbing on the Midi in the Sabertooth.
Earlier that month I hadsoloed thesame gully. I made thedecisionnot to usestainless therebecause I was concerned aboutreliability. It is not a difficult climb but not one I want to have a crampon failure on either, roped or unroped..
Stainless steel might be an upgrade for your kitchen appliances but it is not an upgrade when it comes to a sharp kitchen knife or ice climbing equipment. There are simply too many trade offsto not question the use of stainless in crampons.
It is all a matter of trust. Spend your money wisely.
My money (and boots) are nowon Chromoly.
And a follow up..... that adds to this conversation
http://coldthistle.blogspot.com//08/more-crampon-talk.html
http://coldthistle.blogspot.com//02/it-is-dead-horse-more-on-stainless.html
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